Curse

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 13, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Healing Sig, Watch Yourself, and Shields Up are all you need to say... Don't need a dissertation or something to explain them...

I play PvE a LOT more than pvp and trust me, you've got a perfect team going. If the monk is never out of energy and people know how to stay in the backline, etc.

Most of the people I play with are quite idiots, I wrote the thread on not needing humans already...

When I play with henchies only, then I bring only 2 skills, Watch Yourself and Bonetti's Defense for tanking. For some reason, henchies know what they're doing, I'm only in a non-heal sig utopia with henchies, when I run away, so do they usually, etc...

Don't assume that I don't know what I'm doing when I say bring 3 tanking skills. My team doesn't know what's going on and I need to compensate for stupidity.

Am I saying I'm smarter than my braindead teammates? All I can say is 90% of the time, hell yeah everyone else is stupider than me...

Bad luck in PUGs? You bet... I should rename this thread to, "what would you bring to protect teammembers in stupid PUGs" but I wasn't considering that idea...

Rera · Sep 13, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

@Evilsod: if the monk brought WoH in the first place, she's not going to use it before 50% health anyway. There's no point in healing somebody that isn't in danger of dying, especially when you have that kind of spike heal on your bar. Know why so many PUG monks run themselves out of energy in 5s? Because they're spamming Breeze and Orison on everyone that isn't at full health.

@Yukito: With henchmen you shouldn't need any defensive skills or self-heals. With PUGs I can't see needing more than one defensive skill. You keep claiming that it takes a 'perfect' group for the warrior to not need defensive skill, and that simply isn't the case. None of my guildmates use defensive warriors, and some of them PUG a lot.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 13, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Everyone's got different definitions of a 'defensive' warrior.

I don't know about most of you 1337 people who have perfect teammates each and every game, but obviously, I'm the butt of the game's joke of a PUG going sour. I'm not saying everyone else's pugs are horrid, I'm saying mine are and I'm sure there's more than just me around who've got to deal with stupid humans...

For me, a defensive warrior brings half or more skills on his skillbar for non-damage. >50% is a majority and in my eyes, makes you 'that' type of warrior. If you bring 50% defense and 50% offense, you're to me a balanced warrior... One who'll live a LOT longer than a warrior with absolutely no AL enhancing, stances, or healing on his skill bar. In logic, that also makes sense... 50% = 50% = balanced...

Now, enough of the goofy remarks and pointless essays...

If you say you only would bring 1 'tank' skill into combat and leave the rest to teammates, I'll accept that [not that I said I'd reject it to begin with, but some people really need to understand that I get more idiots for teammates than the average GW player I'm guessing, fact that my guild is rather empty due to me having a life outside this game doesn't help and I can't join guilds cause one: I like being the leader, and two: I'm not die hard... Only guilds I see want die hards and if they're not, they're probably mostly noob players.

I can safely say I spend a ton of time reading up on this game than playing and for some reason, I like it that way...

Now, let's get back on track here.

Seems to me the ultimate general concensus here is that the best 'party affecting' skill a warrior can carry to be of any use is Watch Yourself!!

That's fine. However, after a few skirmishes in Sorrow's Furnace last night, I'd like to update my listing:

Watch Yourself!!
Bonetti's Defense
"Retreat!!"

-I'll accept that Healing Signet doesn't help tanking due to your majority votes so there...-

Retreat REALLY rocks for anti-wipe purposes, that's for sure...

Evilsod · Sep 14, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Maybe so. But is Retreat REALLY worth a skillslot? It stops your party getting wiped... but there should always be someone in a position to retreat without the aid of this skill. I've brought IWAY with me on many occasions. Just because 1 person was killed doesn't mean your party is about to get wiped. The edge from IWAY can give you the edge.

Although on the other side of the debate you could always say that if your whole party gains move speed, potentially scerwing up the agro of everything nearby could also give you the edge.

narud · Sep 14, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

wy and su are the only TEAM help skills worth taking.

I like running wammo, and i use a zealous sword, wy, and the best elite for a wammo in a PUG, empathic removal. empathic is evil when youre loaded on nasty hexes and conditions and so are some of your team mates. And wy gives them a nice 20 armor boost.

For a w/n, ive brought well of blood and loaded on adrenaline skills, very usefull actually.

w/me not much defensive team help on this secondary, but the offensive and self defense is usefull.

w/r if youre running this you should be a self defense with wy i say. Or use apply poison.

w/e self defense maybe one ward, ive tried the warding and wasnt very effective in my opinion.

Thats covered team help very vaguely. With just using warrior skills, youve most likely, but not always, made yourself far worse then if you used your secondary to its usefullness.

ubermancer · Sep 14, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow-Hunter

Echo
Arcane Echo
Mending

And we have a winner.

xtremextreme · Sep 14, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

^^^^^ 3 mendings LOL.

For me, TEAM, would be shields up, watch yourself and charge (one of those useful skills for a quick retreat) I wouldnt usually sacrifice my elite spot for that though.

DrunkenPheonix · Sep 14, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Well it depends solely on the team you are in. If they understand that the warrior should pull the aggro on him, I would use defensive stance for sure, also watch yourself is good to spawn for a constant +20 defence boost for the whole team, to you it might not be that much of a difference, but to your teammates with the low armor rating it helps a bunch. Then there should be no warrior that doesnt use healing signet, unless you are based solely on adrenaline skills so you can use monk healing skills, wich I think, without divine attribute isnt as helpfull as healing signet.

Pls note that I have a factions-only character.

I might use protector's defence when I'm blinded or battling a boss that might take some time to kill, since you can't move.

Rera · Sep 15, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Defensive stance is a terrible choice for two reasons: 1) it's a stance, and 2) it ends when you use a skill. In order for Def stance to be effective, you literally have to stand there and do nothing except normal attacking, and that makes your warrior about as effective as a rock (or, according to Ensign, an spell-spamming elementalist, which is much the same thing).

I agree that Healing Signet is more effective than monk heals, but I do not agree that every warrior needs a healing skill.

The only use I've found for Protector's Defense is against Shiro. Once you have him bodyblocked, you can use Protector's Defense to prevent being party-wiped by Impossible Odds + Battle Scars in the event that some idiot on your team used a high-damage skill while Battle Scars was active. Of course, it's entirely redundant if you have a ranger on the team.

Ulivious The Reaper · Sep 15, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Frenzy + Heal sig o.O
/sarcasm

To be honest now, i like Gladiators defense+watch yourself + on your knees!+ teinais wind

easyg · Sep 15, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

My favorite tanking skills are (1) Watch Yourself (2) Endure Pain and (3) Heal Signet. I also really like Shields Up, but this is more situational.

I don't really see a problem with warriors having some defensive skills on their skill bars. I usually have 4 or 5 attack skills, maybe an IAS or Cyclone Axe, and 3 or 4 axe or sword attacks depending on the mission etc. I find that having more is kinda pointless in PVE because a frontline warrior (if played correctly) will build adrenaline very very fast, meaning even skills that take 8 strikes are recharging after only seconds. Having more than 3 or 4 adrenaline skills would be overkill.

xtremextreme · Sep 15, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Is this tanking skills that affect your team or yourself? If it is just yourself, i change my 3 skills to: Dolylak Signet (no need to move while tanking), Endure Pain (nice little boost) Defy Pain (big little boost). Feedback appreciated.

DrunkenPheonix · Sep 15, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

@ Rera

are you kidding? Defensive stance is one of the best skills available, it saved me countless times, use it when:

- You are blinded
= You won't be damaging anyway, so why not protect yourself?
- Your opponent has a defensive stance of some sorts
= Same as with blinded, you won't really do damage
- You are overrun with lots of enemies, it gives the others the time to take out the mob around you and your monk will be able to keep up healing you.
= Also you should know that some monks might be out of energy, when you need healing the most.
- When your other skills are disables/recharging for quite a time cause of some hex
= With our without the stance, you will do the same damage anyway, so I don't see the reason why not to use the stance.

btw in pvp it isn't really usefull, since the warrior won't be really a tank, but more like a damage dealer.

Rera · Sep 16, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Point-by-point rebuttal!

- If you're worried about being blinded, go /Mo for Mend Ailment or /N for Plague Touch, or heck, have your monk take it off of you (even hench monks bring condition removal). Just standing there with 75% block is useless.
- If your opponent has a defensive stance, you can do one of two things: 1) Wild Blow that **** down, or 2) switch targets.
- If you're 'overrun' by enemies, you're obviously not killing them fast enough because you *didn't bring enough damage*. Killing/interrupting monsters is the most effective form of damage mitigation that a warrior has. Worried about Obsidian Flame? Chain Lightning? Meteor Shower? Kill the ****er that's using it!
- I can think of only a few spells that can keep a warrior's attack skills disabled, and they're encountered very infrequently. I would not waste a slot on my skillbar just to account for this case, especially since I don't need to in order to survive.

Think about it another way: defensive stance (and many other defensive skills in general) is a skill you take for special situations. Now, if, in a particular mission, you really think you'll encounter that situation very often, or you absolutely must account for this situation to beat the mission, then *take your defensive skill*. But otherwise it doesn't make any sense to take a skill that's only useful 10% of the time, when you could take a skill that's useful the other 90% instead.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 18, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Well said...

But thanks to this game's mechanics, surviving can be done by either living longer OR killing enemies faster...

There's no right or wrong way to do it, some people have time to kill so they tank up so that though they take longer to kill said mob, it's probably the safer route and more insured than a damage dealer only warrior who'll run into walls when the enemy may have more than one competent defender...

I find that if I can't kill a target outright, it's time to use them tanking skills...

Don't say change target, that makes you a pve idiot, or rather, PvP winner...

If target wont' die, make yourself tougher to kill as well I say...

Evilsod · Sep 18, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

But thanks to this game's mechanics, surviving can be done by either living longer OR killing enemies faster...

No... the longer it takes you to kill enemies the higher chance people have of leaving or screwing up. Even if your monks are losing an average of 5 energy per minute of fighting, if nothing dies... you will eventually.

Quote:

There's no right or wrong way to do it, some people have time to kill so they tank up so that though they take longer to kill said mob, it's probably the safer route and more insured than a damage dealer only warrior who'll run into walls when the enemy may have more than one competent defender...

If your enemies are killing you while your warrior is stuck because of 1 defender (sounds sorta like Mungri Magicbox) then you have to decide which it is. Your damage dealing is sub-par. Your all trying to solo different targets (hench spikes ftw). Your other allies should bring a bit more defence. Of course with all eles been focused on fire... i doubt we'll see any Blinding Flash/Enervating Charge eles in pugs. Or even necros who decided to bring Enfeeble.

Quote:

I find that if I can't kill a target outright, it's time to use them tanking skills...

I find its time to go back to the drawing board... or kill them BEFORE they get massive defensive spells up... or change target.

Quote:

Don't say change target, that makes you a pve idiot, or rather, PvP winner...

Does Mark of Protection ring a bell?

Quote:

If target wont' die, make yourself tougher to kill as well I say...

How is that beneficial to anyone?

easyg · Sep 19, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Actually, I agree with Yukito Kunisaki about there not being a right way and a wrong way to build up a team. If it works it works. Especially in PVE, where it's possible for a well-played warrior to bodyblock large numbers of enemies by interposing himself in the sight-path of advancing monsters....

The reason a defensive tank isn't ideal for PVP is because a defensive specialist who doesn't draw fire is rather useless. In order for the meatshield concept to work, your tanks have to draw the bulk of the enemy fire. In PvP, this is never the case since the enemy will always prioritize targets perceived to represent the greatest threat: mainly, that means monks and mesmers will get socked before warriors. Even eles will get whacked before warriors.

In practice, warriors are always the last to be targetted by enemy focus fire. And this by definition explains why there are no tanks in PVP. Or to put it another way, if anyone could function as a tank it would be your monks, but they have other duties to perform.

But PvE isn't like PvP. Monsters are dumb. When they see a low AL dude, they will head directly at him by the nearest path. If a warrior is in the way, the monster will never get to the squishy ever. Monsters don't know how to go around stuff standing in their sightline to the target. This is where a solid meatshield is nice, especially one who understands aggro perfectly. There is nothing more beautiful in action than a solid 3 man farming team going to work. It's like a well oiled machine. But hey, the concept works beautifully in missions too.

Rera · Sep 19, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

There's no doubt that tanking works, but dealing damage works better.

"As long as it works" is a bad policy, especially for PvE. See, PvP forces players to get better if they want to win. It forces them to develop new builds, new tactics, and better execution/teamwork. PvE demands none of this, because PvE is *easy* and unchanging. You can take some godforsaken PUG with sub-optimal builds and still beat every mission and quest in the game. "As long as it works" is one of the main reasons PvE players are so uniformly bad at the game - because even at their level, they do ok, and they don't see any reason to get better because ****, they can still beat the missions, and that's all they care about aside from farming.

Most warrior players probably started out with a mind towards defense - after all, staying alive is important - a dead player is no good for anyone except corpse exploitation. So we newbies go into PvE loaded up with heals and stances and whatnot, we kill Skales and Charr and Gargoyles, and it all works out ok. By this point though, the smart warrior is realizing something important: "hey, I'm at full health all the time, and my monk doesn't do much work to keep me there." The even smarter warriors will make the next leap: "hmm, if the monk can keep me alive, maybe I can take out this stance and use an attack instead." And the smartest warriors will play a bit and think, "well, I took out that stance and I'm still ok, let's take out another one," until they've reached the point where either they have no defense/heal, or they have some defense but they die if they remove it. At that point you've found maximum efficiency, and that's the point you always, *always* want to be sitting at.

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Sep 19, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

There's no doubt that tanking works, but dealing damage works better.

"As long as it works" is a bad policy, especially for PvE. See, PvP forces players to get better if they want to win. It forces them to develop new builds, new tactics, and better execution/teamwork. PvE demands none of this, because PvE is *easy* and unchanging. You can take some godforsaken PUG with sub-optimal builds and still beat every mission and quest in the game. "As long as it works" is one of the main reasons PvE players are so uniformly bad at the game - because even at their level, they do ok, and they don't see any reason to get better because ****, they can still beat the missions, and that's all they care about aside from farming.

Most warrior players probably started out with a mind towards defense - after all, staying alive is important - a dead player is no good for anyone except corpse exploitation. So we newbies go into PvE loaded up with heals and stances and whatnot, we kill Skales and Charr and Gargoyles, and it all works out ok. By this point though, the smart warrior is realizing something important: "hey, I'm at full health all the time, and my monk doesn't do much work to keep me there." The even smarter warriors will make the next leap: "hmm, if the monk can keep me alive, maybe I can take out this stance and use an attack instead." And the smartest warriors will play a bit and think, "well, I took out that stance and I'm still ok, let's take out another one," until they've reached the point where either they have no defense/heal, or they have some defense but they die if they remove it. At that point you've found maximum efficiency, and that's the point you always, *always* want to be sitting at.

ive came close to this, REALLY Close, but i stiilll have this almost inside cursed feeling that keeps my hand from taking healing signet off my bar, its like some unnatural urge inside lol, its bout the only defense skills i have in group pvp and pve, i dunno, its like i still dont trust the monks enough or something, i feel like putting bull strike or rush in that one lil place that is the line between 1 tiny lil defense skill(healing signet) and full offense would just complete my build, but then this gut feeling keeps coming back that i dont trust the monks enough and i keep healing signet in there, so i dunno, we do alot of split and ganking so i dunno if its best to leave the healing signet or lose it, ive always left it out when doing HA or HoH cus of the close quarters, but i still have it on my skill bar in gvg cus of the though of separating from the group for a strategical purpose, ive killed a guild lord once and healing signet deteremined wether the gvg was gonna be won or lost, so i dunno about leaving it off of my skill bar completely during pvp situations like this

easyg · Sep 19, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

And the smartest warriors will play a bit and think, "well, I took out that stance and I'm still ok, let's take out another one," until they've reached the point where either they have no defense/heal, or they have some defense but they die if they remove it. At that point you've found maximum efficiency, and that's the point you always, *always* want to be sitting at.

Actually, you're putting the cart before the horse here. Having the minimum number of heal/defensive skills on your warrior skillbar isn't the way to gauge efficiency. This is a team game, and the performance of any member of the team can only be evaluated based on the performance of the team as a whole. The real efficiency meter, then, is the group's time of completion for timed missions, or even kill total for something like the Dragon's Mouth challenge mish. And for PvP, it's having the words "Victory" flashing in green on your monitor. But it all comes down to the same thing in the end.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you that an offensive-minded warrior isn't better for most teams right now. I'm just saying that having zero defensive skills shouldn't be a goal in-and-of-itself.

I'll demonstrate this by a theorectical comparion. Imagine 2 teams, both consisting of 3 chars, and both capable of completing mission x:

Team A
1) Offensive warrior
2) Heavy nuker
3) Boon protect

Team B
1) Stance warrior
2) Heavy nuker
3) Heavy nuker

Which team is more effecient? The point I'm trying to make is that a team monk, by default, doesn't add to a typical team's damage output at all. If a meatshield tank can eliminate the need for a second monk, or even a primary monk, by efficient aggro bundling, then he's already paid price of admission.